Forum:Cerberus turns on sheppard?
So Cerberus turns against Sheppard in me3? Is there any information on why Cerberus/the Illusive man turns on Sheppard? My guess is that The Illusive man gets indoctrinated by the reapers(the old machines). what do you think? I think it is more of a "you have outlived your usefulness" type deal. Plus, one of the endings in ME2 can have you (in nicer terms) tell the Illusive man to f*ck off. that would be another reason on top of the outlived usefulness deal. plus, dude...Illusive man is selfish and can't be trusted. --Burkenation 04:20, June 3, 2011 (UTC) If you read Mass Effect Evolution you would know that the Illusive Man gets husk-ified, so the Reapers are probably controlling him.--Legionwrex 04:25, June 3, 2011 (UTC) huh. Really? I didn't know that. I really thought it would be a outlived your usefulness thing. Haha. thanks for the info. Although I thought Evolution was the background of the Illusive Man, so was he a husk during ME2 or does he get "Husk-ified" as you put it post ME2? reading more into it, I have to say, I don't think he's under their control. those eyes are I think bad ass ocular implants (remember he has billions to spend on Shep, so why not a few million on himself here and there?) and they (spoiler alert) align themselves with the Reapers in ME3 probably out of some delusional idea that if he serves them Humanity will be spared. --Burkenation 04:48, June 3, 2011 (UTC) I never really bought into the "you have outlived your usefulness" nor the indoctrination theory. I would be disappointed if Bioware went down either trees. Firstly, TIM specifically brought Shepard back to fight the'' Reapers'', not the Collectors. The Collectors were just annoying tools who showed up while Cerberus was focusing on the real threat. He even calls the Reapers, not the Collectors, “the greatest threat humanity has ever faced” with good reason. It is clear from his opening speech to Shepard that it is Shepard's ability to lead and gather respect from those around him that made him more valuable than any army he could have hired with the credits spent on Shepard. He knew it would come to ME3: Shepard gathering the forces of the galaxy to fight the Reapers, something Cerberus simply could not do. Miranda mentions at the start of ME2 that the Council would never follow Cerberus, but they would Shepard. So they DO still need him, by their own admission. Of course he has ulterior motives, but TIM is no fool. His priorities were clearly to survive the coming invasion before power. But when both objectives are conveniently aligned he is quick to take a chance. When he spent so much money on Shepard he took a chance it would pay off. He was after defeating the Reapers and stealing their tech. Did he know about the Collector base from the start? No. But he jumped on a potential gold mine when he saw it. His actions have shown him to be a scrupulous, dangerous individual that likely will become a threat once the Reapers are defeated, but intelligent and practical enough to know the Reapers are against him too. ME3 makes clear that blowing up the base makes no difference to the status of Cerberus as enemies in ME3, and no matter what choice Shepard makes that still treat him the same: the odd email, gift and mission but otherwise distant. Even if Shepard blows up the base, TIM makes clear he is focusing on the Reapers and still sends Shepard data, implying a begrudging association for the greater good. It is arguable whether Shepard really knows enough to warrant assassination. EDI's information is quite vague, can be covered up easily if it was given directly to the Alliance and Shepard's words would never stand up in court. What with the whole mass murder thing. Considering the damage Anderson inflicted on Cerberus was much worse then anything Shepard could do you would think he was next on the hit list, but TIM showed his practical nature and delayed his revenge till after the Reapers. All this points the TIM wishing to maintain an alliance with Shepard till he beats the Reapers, then, if nessicary turn on him. As for the Husk thing it is more likely. To anwser the question above, Ben Harper (TIM) is exposed to a Monolith, a husk producing tech that we have seen before. But rather then turn him all the way, he gets the Husk eyes and finds he can access streams of information. Planet locations, alien languages, alien pysiology etc. I believe the Monolith does more then make husks. I think all of them may be networked, gathering all the information that can on civilizations in the galaxy so the Reapers or Collectors can tap into it at will. It would help if they couldn’t reach the Citadel straight away or the records they use on the Citadel were destroyed or damaged. Ben Harper was downloaded with all that information when the Monolith malfunctioned, and he does show the trademark Husk eyes. But this has a lot of holes in it. Firstly, Cerberus is already aquanted with Husks and aware of methods of indoctrination, so why didn't TIM check to see if he was indoctrinated in a similar way? he had to have made the connection between the Husks he saw and the Husks the Reapers make. And why did the Reaper wait till now till they activated TIM. Why wait till after he used Cerberus against them, brought Shepard back and stuffed up their Human-Reaper plan? They had no trouble controlled Grayson while in dark space. The true reason for this, i cant tell. I'm inclined to think TIM is no longer controlling his organisation, as this is not his style. I doubt he would be dumb enough to think human could survive by serving the Reapers. Ever Sare needed to be indoctrinated to believe that. If TIM has turned evil (well more evil) the it feels more like character assassination then development. It would be understandable, as i feel Bioware was surprised by a lot of players after ME2. Sympathy for Cerberus was a common thing due to their position as Shepard's helpers, despite the continued reminders by characters that Cerberus is BAD (Did anyone find it weird that every squadmate did not want Cerberus to have the Collector base. I mean 9 people and they all have the same opinion? and none of them admit to the practicality of it at all? Even Mordin didn’t like it! Genophage parable anyone!). I think Bioware did not expect players to ignore Cerberus' deed so readily simply because they gave Shepard a ship. So now they make it undeniably clear in ME3 that Cerberus is BAD, REALLY BAD. Im just worried that this will cast Cerberus in a less morally ambiguous light. Making them just black and white enemies would not fit in the ME universe.--Ironreaper 05:43, June 3, 2011 (UTC) I was under the impression that TIM was named Jack something or other (or was it Jake? either way it's irrelevant and I get your point) before he became TIM. as for me, I kind of hope that BioWare does the outlived usefulness thing. Dialog choices available throughout ME2 ("I'm not Cerberus.", "I haven't joined Cerberus.", "I'll reserve judgement.", "I won't work for Cerberus.", etc) can make it clear that Shepard is begrudgingly working for Cerberus. as for the collector base, Bioware almost always canonizes the "good"/"morally right" choices (read: KOTOR1. Revan's redemption was canon, and thus the Light-side endings were more fleshed out). If you kept the collector base it still releases an controlled pulse bomb that would wipe out the collectors. so either way you are committing genocide. it's just a matter of do I give this potentially dangerous/evil man a base with the technology to build a reaper?) and to your point about the collector base not having an effect on their standing: within the scope of ME2, you are a cerberus operative. When ME3 rolls around, you have broken your ties with Cerberus, and thus a likely partial explanation for their betrayal is self-evident: you went back and told the Alliance "hey guys I really didn't want to work for Cerberus. as a sign of good faith here's the Normandy SR2. I'll need it, but you can modify it if you want." (which they do! I'm excited...I liked the Normandy SR2 better anyway...) Cerberus is a black-ops organization. Plus, TIM brought Shepard back to fight the Collectors as a way to combat the reapers. To put it another way, the Collectors were a symptom of the Reapers' omnipresence, and to destroy the Reapers they had to be forced to step out of the shadows. (or, fly as it were) I get your point about him not being dumb enough to believe the reapers would spare humans. but what about his organization? I mean, the reapers get to wipe out about 13 Billion people if they destroy earth, but Cerberus is only an organization of what, few thousand or more at most. He could be self-serving enough to think that if he betrays Shepard (their main target, he/she has now taken out Sovereign and destroyed the human reaper they were building.) and works to hand him/her over to the reapers for their torturous experimentation, the Reapers might spare Cerberus. Although, I doubt that they would. Remember: TIM is obsessed with survival!--Burkenation 06:32, June 3, 2011 (UTC) But TIM is also practical, intelligent and willing to put aside a vendetta if it serves his purposes. If you can spot an obvious lie the Reapers would make, how is it he couldnt. And how exactly does TIM hope to rule the galaxy with a total of a few thousand humans (which is a genorous estimate. EDI state there are +150 Cerberus opratives, with more accociates that are unlikely to b included in the Reapers offer). not much of an empire. And just to make it clear, the Collectors were not even operating in the manner seen in ME2 till after Shepard was killed, so his revival was not related to the Collectors. the plan all along was for Shepard to lead the Council against the Reapers. It seems wholy out of charater for TIM to devote time and resources hunting down Shepard in the middle of the Reaper invasion. And for what? Because he might rat Cerberus out or turn on them. He has much better things to do! Even the Alliance wouldnt care about Cerberus anymore, and despite all the pertenious "i'll never work for Cerberus" drivil Alliance people say when the Reapers are on their doorstep odds are they would accept TIM help if offered. And despite all the said comments Shepard made about not wanting to work for Cerberus, its not like he turned down the free ship, new life etc. And every time he claims "I dont work for Cerberus" the easy answer is that he is getting money, weapons and intel from them. He is and just doesnt admit it. In fact, we had a debate over whether Shepard really did leave Cerberus after destroying the base in ME2, given he still recieves money, intel and weapons. And just to make this clearer, Shepard did not give the Alliance the Normandy with a pretty little bow on it. He was arrested for mass murder and the ship was confiscated. The trial was to scapegoat Shepard to appease the batarians and with the Alliance, batarians and the Council not really in the mood to help, Shepard was likely going to the gas chamber and the Alliance would get a new toy. If they gave Shepard the ship back after making it better, then the galaxy would see it as empowering Cerberus, since it is clear Shepard was working for Cerberus and unlikely people will check to see if he still is. --Ironreaper 07:40, June 3, 2011 (UTC) What you're saying is true. but the flipside of that is, Shepard tried to save the batarians but no matter which option was taken in Arrival, those Batarians were going to die. Hackett even admits that Shepard didn't have the power to stop the deaths of those Batarians. FURTHERMORE, Shepard agrees to stand trial because he knows he would be let off. Whether his ship says "Cerberus" or not, he is calling the shots. YES, I will admit that you still receive money, intel etc after hitting the collector base but that is because of one important aspect: the nature of the game. It would have taken extra coding to alter it so if you quit Cerberus after the story in ME2, the credits stop rolling in. further, your interactions with TIM get increasingly hostile, to the point where after you blow up the Base, you make it clear you're done. It would have been do-able but in ME2 you are "working for Cerberus." if after you blew up the base you suddenly got, say, Alliance funding for missions, that wouldn't make sense. and many of the Intelligence items (Overlord, etc) and weapons (Mattlock, etc) were delivered BEFORE the base blew. if you waited til post-game to get into it..well, that would require two sets of emails, and a whole lot of conditional coding. After ME2 if you blow the base, you LEAVE Cerberus. but due to the nature of the game, you receive the stuff from them because its the simplest way to handle the DLC. Who's to say Shepard doesn't hand the Normandy over willingly? I mean, the first Normandy was an Alliance cruiser, and since Ash/Kaiden are going to be squad-mates again, its reasonable to say you were reinstated into the Alliance Ranks. You're still a hero. For better or for worse Shepard is Still the only one capable of defeating the Reapers. The Alliance would be glad to welcome him back if he made a gesture of good faith. They wouldn't gas the hero of the Citadel. They would want him to rejoin them, forsake his relationship with The Illusive Man (who in ME3 is an enemy) and save the Galaxy. maybe you disagree, but this is how I feel. And, frankly, it's speculation from both of us until we play ME3. Way I see it is: if Shepard keeps the base, TIM has a new toy and doesn't need Shepard anymore. If he blows it up, TIM is pissed off that the man (or woman) that he spent a fortune reviving would disobey him like that. Either way, TIM has a reason to turn against Shepard. He could mass a Reaper Army of his own and help the Reapers to further his own ends...or, he could help the Reapers get their prize. Again, either way he's against Shepard. The relationship was tenuous at best, strained at times, and at it's worst, it was down right hostile.--Burkenation 22:57, June 3, 2011 (UTC) When it is made clear that Shepard would be let off? From Hackett? He is an Admiral and has no direct power over the courts, only enough influence to stall. Furthermore, why would they let Shepard off? It is already admitted by Hackett the Shepard is going to be a scapegoat to calm the batarans down. Only his punishment would appease them. To hold a trial like that and then let him go, despite the nagging concern that Shepard DID KILL 300,000 batarians and his only real evidence that it was necessary was his word that the Reapers are coming, would do nothing but infuriate the bartarians more so. Think of it as if the Pakistani people caught Osama Bin Ladin, then found him not guilty and let him go. The US would be ready to declare war! The Council will not step in else it would seem like they condone Shepard's action, which could end with all member races forced into a war with the batarians. To the Council, preserving the peace is more important than one Spectre, and the best chance at peace is in Shepard being found guilty and punished in a manner that the bartarians are satisfied justice has been done. Not really justice? No. But trials like this, where politics and militaries are at stake rarely are. And let’s not forget that there were no survivors from the incident, so the only person anyone can ask for info is Shepard. Both the Alliance and the batarians will find his story suspect and that makes anything he says in court utterly worthless. Basically, Shepard can’t say anything that will truly defend his actions. And the batarians won’t believe a word he says. Shepard has been screaming about the Reapers since Eden Prime and so far only 3 people in the Alliance believe him. Really it would be easier for the Alliance to make Shepard out to be a lone nut. What other option is there? Hackett admitting he approved the mission? That is proof the Alliance was involved in the murder of 300,000 bartarians. That alone would be enough to declare war. Shepard's relationship with Cerberus is strange after the base blows up. The suspension of disbelief still applies in that Shepard receives money from Cerberus after ever mission, considering you can play and get weapons after the base is blown up. Lair of the Shadow Broker was made with dialogue that checks if you have blown up the base yet you still get a Cerberus report at the end. If you wish to learn more about this, i have a forum on my page about whether Shepard truly left Cerberus following the Collector base. It was an important issue that receiving money and intel cannot be passed off as a continuity error in the game, as these action must still follow a logic in the game world. Check the forum; people a lot smarter than me have stated this option. Also what makes you think the Alliance likes Shepard? Shepard may be a hero, but he also has a greatly antagonistic relationship with the Alliance. Firstly, a lot of his actions in ME were done in a manner that was treasonous to the Alliance. While Shepard was proven right and made a hero, his defiant actions don’t fit well in the military. As Jacob states the Alliance is always looking out for "disruptive types". Look at Jacob, a career soldier and hero in his own right only to be treated poorly by the Alliance. Furthermore, Shepard continually preached about the Reapers, which the Alliance hated. They did not believe the Reaper and wanted to avoid a panic over an unfounded threat (Sovereign was clearly just a mutated tellatubby right? that makes more sense). After Shepard died, the Alliance tore apart that story, claiming he was delusional and insane. They destroyed his reputation. So if you think the Hero of the Citadel is untouchable, think again. They also took the Normandy and tore its crew apart, disliking how a Spectre got their prized toy and the non-humans on board. After Shepard got back and worked for Cerberus, you can see some members were so concerned about the press getting this that they wanted to kidnap Shepard and interogate him. It was only Hackett's trust that saved Shepard. The Hero of the Citadel getting arrested and tortured? They would never do that. Both Anderson and the Virmire Survivor abandoned Shepard after seeing he is working for Cerberus. And now they are putting him on trial as a scapegoat for the murder of 300,000 batarians. Why wouldn’t they want to convict the Hero of Citadel, when the Council was ready to convict him for treason as soon as they saw him? If they don’t convict him, odds are a war with the batarians and evidence and Shepard's account make it clear HE DID IT. Why? Because the Reapers are coming. The fact is the Alliance has been trying to make Shepard out to have cracked it and this will give them all the proof they need. Hero or no, Shepard is not liked in the Alliance and his conviction and execution, while it would be a tragedy to the general population, would save millions of lives. If you want proof, look at General McCartney. This guy was a hero during WW2, but after he went too far in his anti-Communist agenda he was stripped of his rank by the President. Just because Shepard was willing to go on trial doesn’t mean he would get off. Otherwise this trail is pointless, with no tension or conflict and more of an annoying interruption. "Yey I’m going to stop the Reapers, but can i come back i just gotta go to Earth for a trial over a few hundred thousand deaths? Gonna get off anyway. I don’t even know why they want me there. Just say not guilty." And why would the Alliance want Shepard back? He is a Spectre, so not with their military anymore. And they don’t believe the Reapers are coming, so there is no threat to speak of for them to have him for. Plus Ash/Kaiden doesn’t mean Shepard is Alliance now. They are Spectres now and don’t answer to the Alliance anymore.--Ironreaper 03:26, June 4, 2011 (UTC) Your arguments are sound! however, I disagree with many of them. For one, Hackett even states that the evidence against Shepard is shoddy at best. For two, the Alliance had to distance themselves from him because he was rebuilt by Cerberus. You are so focused on being right that you aren't even opening yourself to see the flipside to all this. Shepard secured humanity's place on the Council (Paragon) or their dominance of the council (Renegade). And, for Paragon Shepard, his actions weren't all that controversial. And, you also forget, reinstatement into the Spectres isn't a guarantee. He was stripped of that Status when he was KIA. And, when he was a Spectre before he died, he WAS still with the Alliance. they aren't mutually exclusive. He was Alliance before he joined the Spectres, and Humanity/the Alliance THREW him to the Council because they salivated at the thought of having a Spectre. They saw it as the first step to joining the council, which is what they wanted. You say "only 3 people in the Alliance believe him." What, did you poll the Hundreds of thousands of soldiers they have? I'd say a heck of a lot more than 3 people bought his story. Would it be easier to say he's a nut? Okay yes maybe it would. The Deaths caused in Arrival were ABSOLUTELY unavoidable. Even if Shepard had figured out that Kenson was a raving lunatic earlier, shot her, and alerted the colony with more time to spare, a lot of Batarian blood would be on his hands. Plus, Shepard never "joins" Cerberus. Even Renegade Shepard, if he promotes them as doing "good work," TIM never really hired him. Really think about it. He was rebuilt by Cerberus, and in exchange they asked him to stop the collectors. in order to do that they knew he needed a ship, seeing as the first Normandy was resting in pieces on an ice world. but they didn't hire him into the Organization, they didn't say "OK now you work for us." none of that. And I go back to the big point that Shepard is a damned hero. He stopped Saren. he took down the collectors. and, he tried but failed to save the lives of 300,000 batarians. I TOTALLY GET the fact that he could be used as a scapegoat. I never said the trial was pointless. I merely pointed out that Shepard can start to mend the fence so to speak by standing up and "taking the hit" for the lives lost. Plus that comment from Hackett that he better be wearing his "dress blues." guess what color the Alliance off-duty uniforms are. yup, blue. All this and more points out that in Mass Effect 3, Shepard will be back in the Alliance chain of command. I am not saying he'll be let off automatically. I expect a early quest to be you having to justify the loss of those Batarians' lives. (in the vein of KOTOR1 where you have to justify your presence in the Sith Base on Manaan. Failure results in your execution and thus Critical Mission Failure.) When the reapers' fire rains down on Earth, with Shepard there, they'll realize "oh crap he was right," and stuff like that. All this is just speculation based on my own personal theories/hopes for Mass Effect 3. I do hope there is a interactive trial where you must justify it. I do hope that he comes in and is like btw, Normandy is yours guys (because that would be a sign of good faith, as I've stated before! it would be a clear sign from Shepard that, know what? he ISN'T alligned with Cerberus. because, as I pointed out earlier in this paragraph, he was never hired by Cerberus. It is possible to make this point clear: I am not working for Cerberus. They gave me a ship but I am taking care of this the way I want to. PLUS, the "scapegoat" dialog only comes up if you give renegade dialog options. if you choose the paragon option Hackett mentions that the evidence against him is shoddy at best. the asteroid hit the relay. so...? you don't think asteroids hit mass relays all the time? case and point, the Mu Relay. it was struck by an object and its position shifted significantly enough that the coordinates had to be tracked down again. the relay's destruction is suspicious, I'll admit. And chances are the preset background will have Shepard having attempted to warn the Batarians, but running out of time. Not trying to claim that Shepard will be let off automatically. just pointing out that the evidence is as I've stated SHODDY! it's there. the Normandy's presence in the system, and the sub-sequent destruction of that system should raise eyebrows. I'll admit that. but I still say Shepard will be back in the Alliance. As for the mission report pieces...yes, it's odd that the game still presents them as from cerberus. but consider this: if you waited until after the collector base was destroyed to do Overlord, Firewalker, Lair of the Shadow Broker...that's close to a dozen mission reports they'd have to make two of. and Project Overlord was a Cerberus Op, so if you quit them and went in as Alliance/freelance they'd still pay you for helping them. Fire-walker, same type of thing. there are a few that allow for flexibility in the latter, however. Plus many of the N7 missions are funded by Cerberus at the end (forget many, all? it's been a while since I've done some of them...) so add in another large # of missions that would require two mission reports (one for if you blew the base, one for if you kept it) so BioWare bit the bullet there and was like "it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but hopefully they'll ignore that." the game is so well done, that a tiny issue like that is almost akin to hitting a speed bump in an SUV. do you really feel it? no. It's obvious we are never going to see eye to eye, however, Ironreaper, so this will be my last post in this topic. --Burkenation 04:09, June 4, 2011 (UTC) No i did not forget the Spectre reenstation was optional, i simply did not bother mention the alternative because it makes lttle defference. Why would mentioning that Shepard is no longer a Spectre be importnt in the context of whether the Council will help him? Either way he is no longer a member of the Alliance. He left that to become Spectre and signig up with a terrorist force in opposition to the Alliance doesnt help. i also refer to Shpeard as mae, forgoing the fact Shepard could be male or female. Does that interfere with the point in question? No. I imagine his "best blues" are the formal Alliance clothes. Anderson has wore suits like such. Asteriods hit mass relays all the time? No. The Mu Relay was hit by the shockwave of a supernova. no real avoiding that. too big. But a mass relay getting hit by an asteriod would be like the odds of a planet like Earth getting hit by one divided by 100. Plus there has been no documented account of an relay being destroyed, by asteriod or weapons etc. But your point is valid. It could be passed off as a freck accident and the Alliance could cast the batarians as aggressors using it to push for war. Much better, more aggressive stratagy then appeasement. Plus, to add to your point, the Normandy was stealthed, so it is unlikely they ever spotted it and even if they did all records would be destroyed. Interesting. I'm quite certain that the trial will also be used to load your save. The judges will ask Shepard to recount all choices he made from ME onwards. A save file transfer shows these choices, while a new one has you go through every choice (at least important ones) and make it then. It also fills out the DLC details like LOTSB and Arival if the save file didnt have them. PS Why does it offend you so much that i do not agree with you? We are both stating our options and if you present proof to counter mine, i will consed that you are right as above (for instance TIM is Jack not Ben *facepalm*. And yes in that 3 people in the Alliance i was not counting Ken and . . . what was her name? Gabbie? Anyway more are likely believe something is up. Unfortunatly they are grunts and will have no effect on the trial) But im not going to say your right simply to avoid an argument. This has been a reasoned, mature debate that has gone much more smoothly then other, less civilazed ones on this wiki, and i have quite enjoyed it. I feel sharing our options is fair more important then getting everyone to believe im right. Im disappionted to see it end.--Ironreaper 05:05, June 4, 2011 (UTC) breaking my own rule for a moment I have 3 final things to say: 1) if I came across as it offending me that you disagree that was not my intention. I was merely frustrated that you seemed to be dismissing my arguments so quickly. (okay maybe that sounds like I took offense, trust me when I say but I like having my views challenged by well reason, intelligent counter-arguments.) 2) I have enjoyed this debate as well 3) in relation to 2) above, I am ending it merely because I have my views you have yours, both are valid in their own way. we can debate this until we're blue in the face but it's obvious we'll never reach a mutual ground, so a continued debate would accomplish nothing. that said, my proof is mainly in the dialog I encountered that hints strongly that he will be acquitted either because (a) the Reapers attack mid-trial (some preview material I read favors that) or (b) the Alliance recognizes the sheer lack of concrete evidence and is forced to let him off. One quick point about no documented incidents of asteroids striking mass relays: the galaxy is a massive place, and I am quite certain that somewhere sometime a mass relay was wiped out by a asteroid impact. It might not be documented because it was a relay that was (a) never charted or (b) the records of its coordinates were lost in the course of time. I am really quite certain that these 300,000 Batarians are not the first victims of a mass relay's destruction. but hey, maybe I'm naive. in closing, it's been nice debating with you (you present your arguments clearly and intelligently) but I am done for real this time. --Burkenation 06:08, June 4, 2011 (UTC) I post a thought, been very busy for a week, the post turns into a TL;DR... but i still read it, i liked this debate Wouter215 23:44, June 11, 2011 (UTC) I have had another few thoughts: 1. the illusive man is angry because you destroyed 300,000 (and started a war with the?) batarians under the name of cerberus. 2. the illusive man is angry because you handed the normandy(2) to the alliance. 3. the illusive man is angry because you handed yourself over to the alliance. 4. is it absolutely sure that cerberus will be turned against you in me3? 5. the illusive man thinks your starting to behave like saren. (take a long deep thought about this one) Wouter215 23:44, June 11, 2011 (UTC) A piece of dialog I forgot to mention was Hackett when he boards the Normandy after arrival if you destroyed the base and say "what are you doing on a Cerberus vessel" he says something like "I'm not sure this IS a Cerberus vessel anymore," indicating you severed your dealings with them. Which to me is BioWare foreshadowing that Cerberus is after you. Also yes it's a given that Cerberus hates you in ME3. --Burkenation 01:06, June 12, 2011 (UTC) Thant particular piece of dialogue is a context-sensitive. If you blow up the Base, then it happens else he does not mention such doubts. It is nice to finally get some reference to the fact that you pretty much told TIM to f himself. As for above thoughts: 1) A good point. It may be possible TIM is pissed that Shepard would do something so damaging to galaxy stability with the Reapers so close. Since the Alliance is considering scapegoating Shepard to prevent war, TIM himself would probably be considering damage control. That said, with all his contacts in the Alliance it is unlikely TIM did not hear Shepard’s side of the story and given all the faith he put in Shepard so far, it is hard to believe he would just lose faith right now. That and as soon as the Reapers show up on Earth i doubt anyone, humans or batarians, would care about that anymore. The humans will scramble for Earth and will support any effort by Shepard to gain help regardless of his past. And the batarians will focus on protecting their own borders. 2) 3) Not enough info on that yet. It is not clear what circumstances there are for you and the Normandy to "rejoin" the Alliance. As likely as it is that Shepard rejoined the Alliance willingly, it is also likely he was taken prisoner and the Normandy confiscated. Think about it. The Alliance doesn’t know of Shepard's involvement in destroying the Collectors (or at least doesn’t know the full story). The worry among the Alliance is clear that Shepard is to become a scapegoat to appease the batarians and prevent war. They can’t find him innocent without angering the batarians. And the dossiers in LOTSB make it clear there are those in the Alliance who already wish to arrest Shepard for treason and hold him prisoner. To add to my theory, Shepard is not in the formal Alliance gear in the ME3 opening but a dark, dirty, simplistic outfit more suited to a prisoner. Also the Normandy was not given right back to Shepard, making it unlikely he parted from it willingly, rather it was given to the Virmire survivor (Ash/Kaiden) and the second human Spectre. This may have been a propaganda effort to "replace" Shepard and remove the connotations with the Normandy as Shepard's ship. In effect they were trying to erase Shepard by putting a new Spectre into the limelight. 4) YES, YES AND YES. Their involvement with the Reapers was given by Bioware a great deal and has been seen much in footage. They are more of a military organisation now rather than a covert one. It has been stated that they are under the control of the Reapers, but Bioware has been vague as to the circumstances, saying Shepard has to find out in the game. 5) Really, you’re behaving like Saren? There are some parallels. Both committed a horrific act of terrorism, both supposedly betrayed the Council while seeking to do what they believed would save lives, both got nice with the geth, both learned of the Reapers and understood the magnitude of the threat. But that doesn’t take away from the fact that Shepard is FIGHTING the Reapers, not aiding them as Saren did. It’s Cerberus that are acting like Saren, supposedly aiding the Reapers conquest in the hope of sparing a few lives. --Ironreaper 06:03, June 12, 2011 (UTC) And adding to my above is Legion: when you talk to him he states: "You are Shepard. Commander. Alliance. You oppose the heretics. You oppose the Old Machines." While it could be argued that he doesn't know that Shepard is "working for Cerberus" now, it is reasonable to say he does since he is obsessed with the commander. Legion has limited understanding of human groups, but knows enough that he knows that Shepard is Alliance. Also Hackett INSISTS that even when you're a Spectre you're still a member of the Alliance. Spectre is a Civilian Rank, Commander is a Military Rank. He is technically "Commander Shepard, Systems Alliance Navy, Spectre"; at times Civilian Ranks supercede Military rankings but that does not always indicate a loss of the Military Ranking. And yes I agree the dialog I mentioned is context sensitive, but it's there. And nice to see you starting to agree that TIM is either willingly or unwillingly aiding the Reapers to (try to) save his people. I just had the feeling that would be the case. I for one plan on (if it's possible) personally putting the kill shot through TIM's skull. March 6 2012 can't come fast enough. Also anyone else find it ironic that ME3 is being released in 2012 and depicts the Earth burning when a lot of people are insane enough to think the world will explode in December 2012 --Burkenation 07:44, June 12, 2011 (UTC) Kill shot through the head? Wow thats violent. But i had the same feeling with the bad guy in COD4. I really hated that guy. What was his name? Zakiave? --Ironreaper 08:11, June 12, 2011 (UTC) @ Ironreaper 06:03, June 12, 2011 (UTC) (5)) are you sure sheppard is not being indoctrinated like saren? sheppard was mindcontrolled/under-the-influence-of a geth like system, he has been in contact with reaper tech. his omni tool is a great entry point tho hack into his mind. + all the cerberus tech from the laserus project. even if he's 'fighting' the reapers, he could be serving them (creating chaos with the destruction of 300000 batarians and all..). (this post in not an argument, just thoughts :) )Wouter215 11:57, June 12, 2011 (UTC) also @ Ironreaper 06:03, June 12, 2011 (UTC) (5)) Is TIM sure that you are in fact fighting the reapers and not being indoctrinated? i mean it's bad enough that you have ACTIVE geth on the normandy witch/what itself/themselves have admitted to attempt to communicate directly with the AI. (also sheppard is like saren because he's also a cyborg) (i would like to point out that i like the geth (the normal geth not the heretics) especially legion, he/it/they is/are awsome)Wouter215 12:08, June 12, 2011 (UTC) Indeed Shepard was briefly controlled for a bit by David the Overlord VI. But the circumstances are not clear. For one he was not under the Overlord's control, but seemed more disorentated and surprised by the sudden change in reality. My theory is the overlord used the omi-tool and, basing on the knowlegde of human pysiology in David, tried to hack into Shepards brian. Since it instead showed Shepard Davids past and Shepard never surrendered to his will, it is likely it did not work as expected. And after David was shut down, his influence stopped. This was never indoctrination. As for true indoctrination, the games have shown the need for at least serveral hours to a few days to take control, with more subtle methods taking longer. Shepard has never been in contact with Reaper tech for that long. He was on the dead Reaper for a few minutes to an hour and that was the longest. More fast acting methods, like husks, leave noticable signs. And while Shepard my be causing choas in the galaxy, it is a galaxy at war! There was already a lot of choas. At least Shepard is gathering allies to stop the Reapers, since a united galaxy is something the Reapers wounld never want from a slave--Ironreaper 13:36, June 12, 2011 (UTC) Haha I want to recreate Martin Sheen's death in The Departed. Shot through the head and thrown off a building. RIP Captain Queenan. --Burkenation 16:51, June 12, 2011 (UTC) It's really simple. TIM wants to be emperor of the galaxy. He seeks human domination with Cerberus leading humanity and of course TIM as head of Cerberus. Why the multi-billion credit outlay on a project to bring back Shepard when it is clear it will not generate any sort of financial gain? Once he is supreme ruler money becomes a non-issue. Once you own every thing there is nothing you need to buy. Kings ride to the throne on the backs of great warriors and this was TIM’s plan for Shepard. With Shepard going back to Alliance, TIM needed another plan. --The.Huntress 14:12, June 16, 2011 (UTC) Cerberus turning against Shepard never surprised me. As a matter of fact, I was wondering when it was going to happend. In response to the "Illusive Man" and my 100% Paragon female "Shepard", they would have never gotten along in the first place because the "Illusive Man" is ruthless & selfish. My female "Shepard" always tries to resolve issues peacefully and she was selfless. The Crazy Tactician! (talk) 02:10, July 31, 2012 (UTC)